A mate saw David Anderson down at Frankston working out over the weekend, let’s hope 2011 brings big things for the Aussies.

I’m also not sure where I’ve found “excuses to void” Kobe’s achievements. The playoffs thing was an arbitrary counterexample to show what I DIDN’T care about, yet it’s been misinterpreted as a slight on Kobe. It’s not – as I said in the previous post, it was an understandable consequence of the dire coaching situation he had that year.

Do I think he deserved the Finals MVP? No.
Is he the first player to land a questionable award? Of course not.
Do I care about it too much given future generations will have access to video and statistical data that we didn’t? Probably.

Is this question-and-answer mode doing a outstanding job of irritating whoever’s reading it? No doubt.

he really is the perfect fit for the lakers hey. when you think of it, his game has to change dramatically numerous times a game depending on whether he’s playing the 4 with Bynum in, or at the 5.

offensively he works incredibly well with another big man inside, which really is quite unique. single coverage and he’ll burn your ass every time, or if he’s being doubled he’ll get you 4, 5, maybe 7 assists with his passing game.

few players use their height as well as he does (so does bynum actually). i cringe every time i see howard bring the ball down to his knees after a regather on an offensive board.

what i loved watching this series was the fire in the eyes. there’s a drive and determination there i haven’t seen in him in previous years. the media may have focused on the ’soft’ tag thing a bit, being the celtics again and all, but aside from one poor game in boston he played like the meanest mofo on the floor.

pau is hands-down the reason phil comes back next year. and if bynum can get any sort of run going with health (big ‘if’ i know), the nucleus of this team really could shut out the rest of the league for a few years to come, irrespective of what lbj and his fellow free agent co-conspirators decide.

That’s why it annoys me that you continue to find excuses to void Kobe’s achievements while making arbitrary exemptions for others. Like noting Hakeem’s team was plus .500 and just missed out. Now that the goalposts have changed to sub .500 teams, I could bring up Jordan’s sub .500 team that made the playoffs in 87.

“Duncan was denied back-to-back Finals by the greatness of prime Shaq and then the 0.4 shot Fisher pulled out of his arse.”

If the first part of this statement is referring to 99-00 then prime Shaq had nothing to do with denying Duncan’s repeating since the Duncan-less Spurs were knocked out by Kidd’s Suns. Injury sucks, dumb luck sucks too, but it breaks both ways. You realise that in 2004, just before Fisher hit his prayer and just after Kobe put the Lakers ahead, that Duncan hit an extremely lucky shot too.

Does 2003 end with a Spurs ring if Dirk doesn’t go down in Game 3? Ask Phoenix if the Spurs have had any playoff luck against them over the last 5-6 years.

I’d also make a mention that prime Kobe knocked out Duncan’s repeat bid in 2008. Does that end the same way if Ginobili is fully healthy or if Fisher’s foul on Barry is called? What if Bynum isn’t injured?

It happens. Don’t just keep making excuses for anyone who isn’t Kobe.

In any case, the point I was trying to make isn’t that missing the playoffs is somehow an indictment…but rather that we shouldn’t be setting arbitrary check-lists for players to satisfy before they can be considered greats, whether that is back-to-back Finals, or making the playoffs.

I don’t give a shit that Kobe missed the playoffs in ‘05, it’s understandable given they had a disastrous coaching situation. Just like I don’t give a shit that Duncan was denied back-to-back Finals by the greatness of prime Shaq and then the 0.4 shot Fisher pulled out of his arse. There’s just so much luck involved in sports that it’s dumb to have hard criteria.

@CP4: I’m a bit confused. On the one hand you’ve said Kobe’s now only to be compared to Jordan, yet on the other you’ve still got Magic ahead of him (I agree, btw). Am I misinterpreting something?

And call me weird, but I actually prefer watching Magic highlights (and great assists in general) over Jordan highlights. Doesn’t make me think Magic was the better player, though.

@Rob: I agree with you on the Nash thing, but I don’t think anyone will ever argue Nash’s career was as good or better than Kobe’s. At least I hope not. Unless, of course, they somehow make back-to-back MVP one of those unnecessary “requirements of greatness” that I was whinging about above

Back on topic a little bit; what do people think RE: Gasol being the best big in the game? MVP or not, I don’t think there’s a single other big that they could sub him for, and still win the title.

For me, there is only one player on that list who is definitely above Kobe on my all-time list, and that is Kareem. And it’s hard to say where Kareem’s “prime” really started and ended because he was so dominant for so long.

I don’t think the “never missed playoffs in his prime” is a huge argument anyway, because of the different eras and the different league structure.

To me the better measure is how did this player perform when they were on a great team? Because we know even the greatest players couldn’t win without help.

The jump from good team to great team is easier than great team to champion team. There have been heaps of great teams, but only a few champion teams. Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Stockton were all on great teams. But they never got over the hump to become champions.

This is why I often rag on Steve Nash. He’s been on some outstanding teams, even as an MVP, yet he never even got to the Finals.

These last two seasons Kobe has been fortunate to be on a great team. But so many players have been in similar situations and failed, whereas Kobe came away with two straight rings.

Put it this way. When you splice together a highlight reel of Kobe’s career, it’s probably the second best highlight reel in history, to MJ. It’s arguably a better highlight reel.

You might say aesthetics don’t matter, but I think they clearly do when people are judging a player’s legacy. Maybe they’re the all-too impressionable people, like the people that are saying Kobe is the greater Laker than Magic. That is just bullshit. But some people believe it because individually, Kobe is on another level to Magic. Nice fast break passes and baby-hooks don’t impress as much as what Kobe/MJ could do.

Oh and one last thing. A “healthy Kobe” never missed the playoffs in his prime. The ONE year he missed the playoffs, he was injured for about 15 games. The next two years “in his prime” he only made the first round, but he had two of the most impressive individual seasons of all time (with a crappy team). Not disimilar to Jordan between 1987-1989.

You obviously don’t have a great recollection of NBA History then.
Wilt – 63
Oscar – 68,69,70
Kareem – 75,76
Garnett – 05,06,07
Hakeem – 92
Havlicek – 70, 71
Barkley – 88, 92
Pettit – 62

Try to keep the ignorant generalisations to a minimum.

Duncan’s primary weapon was defense. He controlled games simply with his defensive presence. So the equivalent thing to Kobe shooting 40% would be Duncan allowing a dozen or more easy lay-ups for the series (like he did this year). Then he absolutely would have been criticized. The shooting %s with Duncan were always a secondary thing though, just like rebounding with Kobe is secondary.

—”who hit crazy shots and buzzer beaters and fly through the air”

I mean, you’re right when you say that those things don’t matter to me one iota when we’re talking about legacy. They do matter when I’m watching a game, for the pure joy aspect, but that’s an entirely different thing altogether.

To wit, my lists of “best players” and “best players to watch” look completely different.

Did all that stuff help Jordan’s legacy? With the wider public, no doubt, and that’s what made him a cross-sport icon (rather than just a basketball icon). But that’s not what endeared him to basketball people – Jordan is the GOAT quite simply because he dominated the game more than anyone before or since. If we start imposing aesthetic or scoring criteria, we might as well just watch games of HORSE.

As for the whole idea of back-to-back Finals or dynasties or whatever…blergh. It’s such an arbitrary requirement. I could just as easily point out that a healthy Kobe managed to miss the playoffs in his prime, something that I don’t recall any other “great” players doing.

And no, I would never put Duncan ahead of Jordan any more than I would put Horry ahead of Jordan. Rings are a tie-breaker for me, not an indicator. Jordan was simply the better player.

But yes, you’re right that ultimately my problem is with the Finals MVP voters (and the LA media in general), rather than Kobe himself.

The thing is, when Duncan shoots horribly people will overlook it and focus on his other good aspects. When Kobe does something horrible, people aren’t as willing to overlook it. They just want to focus on the negatives. Not saying that’s you, just the wider fan-base in general. It stems from Duncan being a generally well-liked guy who never pissed anyone off, whereas Kobe has been so polarizing and has pissed lots of people off.

I agree with your point on legacies, as far as “maintaining the integrity of the league”. You’re obviously of the opinion Kobe didn’t deserve his MVP and one of his Finals MVP. That’s fine. I believe he earnt them, but everyone has their own opinion.

For the record, I think Kidd should have been MVP in 2002 instead of Duncan, Kobe should have been MVP in ‘06, and Paul should have won it in ‘08 (becuase in case you hadn’t realised, I’m a Chris Paul fan).

But as for Gasol’s legacy (and even CP3), give me a break. We don’t talk about their legacies for a reason. Kobe is a guy who not only has had lots of team success, but who individually, talent-wise, is on a completely different level to anyone else.

That’s why I brought up MJ. If you want to talk about players who have won multiple rings, but who are also phenominally talented individuals who can dominate at both ends of the floor, who can score 40, 50, 60 points, who hit crazy shots and buzzer beaters and fly through the air, do all those amazing things, etc etc… who else do you compare him to?

He’s too far removed from Bird and Magic because they couldn’t do those things. Same goes with Duncan and Shaq.

You might say all those things don’t matter, but they are part of the reason why MJ is the GOAT. Duncan could win 7 rings and you’d still never put him above MJ, right?

You’d take Duncan’s career? I have a huge amount of respect for Tim Duncan, but he’s never even been able to get to the Finals two years in a row. He might be the only top 10 player never to do that. Kobe is on the verge of taking part in his second dynasty 10-years removed from his first one. Correct me if I’m wrong but no one has ever done that before, at least not in the modern era.

Anyway, I’m not a Lakers fan and I don’t know why I’m getting all pro-Kobe on this. In fact, I used to dislike the man.

Sounds like your problem is with the Finals MVP voters anyway, not Kobe.